Do You Tone Before- Or After The Fix/Hypo Clear Cycle?

thronobulax

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Back in the Paleolithic era when I first learned the darkroom I was taught that the cycle of work was:

Dev -> Stop -> Fix -> 5min wash -> Permawash/Hypo Clear -> Tone -> Final Wash

Tone after Fix/Clear was a Kodak recommendation as I recall.

However, I have seen a number of places of late that suggest that the end cycle should be:

Fix -> Tone -> Hypoclear -Wash (i.e. no wash after fix)

What say ye (and why)?
 
That depends on the Toner.

Most Selenium toners contain Thiosulphate so it's best to use the Hypo clear after toning, if it's a Sepia toner there's far less need.

Ian
 
Thronobulax
(you don't have a shorter name do you? Yours takes a long time to type! I can't call you Mr T. can I? )
Regarding the idea of fix>tone I think I had problems with staining when I selenium toned straight after fixing. I seem to remember that it could work if the print was saturated with fixer when it went into the selenium bath. But it was a bit hit and miss. Even worse was a quick rinse in water after fixing. The method I use is to take the print out of the fix, put it into an empty dish and rinse it for a minute or so with clean water. Pour this out and pour in hypo clear. Agitate in this for a minute or so then put the print into the selenium toner. This avoids stains.
Some people dev, fix, wash and dry the print before selenium toning. I prefer to tone as part of the processing sequence, in case , after toning, I decide to do another print with different exposure or contrast. This is easy as the negative is still in the enlarger.

Alan
 
Some people dev, fix, wash and dry the print before selenium toning. I prefer to tone as part of the processing sequence, in case , after toning, I decide to do another print with different exposure or contrast. This is easy as the negative is still in the enlarger.

Depends on the time of day and how long a printing session, if long and late I'll fix wash then dry prints and Selenium tone usually the next day giving them a soak in water first.

Selenium toning only offers a slight increase in image permanance and with Fibre based papers it's still important to remove any residual Thiosulphate as that's a component of the selenium toners. If you wanted the highest archival permanance then a soak in a dilute Sodium Sulphide toner (no pre-bleach) is very effective, too long or too strong and you'll change the image colour by direct toning.

I did some tests a few years ago for someone on another Forum, you can bleach the silver from a Selenium toned print but not one protected by Silver Sulphide. it's a fine balance best done with some testing to determin the strength & time. It's not something I do with my own prints.

Ian
 
Hi Ian,
Yes, I did know that Sodium sulphite was the stuff to use for permanence. Didn't this idea come from Duckspool? My reason for using selenium toner is to improve the depth and quality of the print.
I remember John Blakemore saying that he fixes, washes and dries his prints. Then selenium tones them at a later stage, as you describe. I still prefer to do mine as I go along with the printing process, for the reasons I gave above. But my printing sessions only involve working on one or two negatives.

Alan
 
Thronobulax
(you don't have a shorter name do you? Yours takes a long time to type! I can't call you Mr T. can I? )
Regarding the idea of fix>tone I think I had problems with staining when I selenium toned straight after fixing. I seem to remember that it could work if the print was saturated with fixer when it went into the selenium bath. But it was a bit hit and miss. Even worse was a quick rinse in water after fixing. The method I use is to take the print out of the fix, put it into an empty dish and rinse it for a minute or so with clean water. Pour this out and pour in hypo clear. Agitate in this for a minute or so then put the print into the selenium toner. This avoids stains.
Some people dev, fix, wash and dry the print before selenium toning. I prefer to tone as part of the processing sequence, in case , after toning, I decide to do another print with different exposure or contrast. This is easy as the negative is still in the enlarger.

Alan

If you prepend the '@' symbol and begin typing my nom de guerre, the forum will provide a list of matching names from which to select. This is called "tagging in" a recipient.
 
@t
Hmmm... Not on this keyboard. I'll persist in private. Thanks for the tip anyway.
I learned selenium toning as a aesthetic strategy rather than a preservative. The method was always to make the prints as usual, dry it properly, because of dry-down, and only then to do the toning. An added refinement was to make two identical prints and put the other in a tray of water next to the toning tray so as to keep track of the toning. It can be very gradual and was quite easy (at least for me) to overshoot. And of course, if you did overshoot, you had another print to work on.
 
Hi Ian,
Yes, I did know that Sodium sulphite was the stuff to use for permanence. Didn't this idea come from Duckspool? My reason for using selenium toner is to improve the depth and quality of the print.
I remember John Blakemore saying that he fixes, washes and dries his prints. Then selenium tones them at a later stage, as you describe. I still prefer to do mine as I go along with the printing process, for the reasons I gave above. But my printing sessions only involve working on one or two negatives.

Alan

The usual reason for using Selenium toner is to change the slight greenish tingeof some Warmtone papers to a redish colour, or split toning as used by Thomas Joshua Cooper, Olivia Parke, and of course John Blakemore. One rason for doing the Selenium toning later is it's easier to spot and control the colour cjanges in daylight.

I use a plain Sodium Sulfite solution 1-2% as a wash aid, it can leave scum on prints in hard water areas but I swab my prints with kitchen towelling before drying.

Ian
 
The usual reason for using Selenium toner is to change the slight greenish tingeof some Warmtone papers to a redish colour, or split toning as used by Thomas Joshua Cooper, Olivia Parke, and of course John Blakemore. One rason for doing the Selenium toning later is it's easier to spot and control the colour cjanges in daylight.

I use a plain Sodium Sulfite solution 1-2% as a wash aid, it can leave scum on prints in hard water areas but I swab my prints with kitchen towelling before drying.

Ian

Hello Ian,
As everyone else round here is disagreeing with you, I hope you don't mind if I do the same. Only joking!!!
I always selenium tone my prints done on Ilford Warmtone paper, but not to get a reddish tone. I do it to get deeper shadows and more life in the print. I pull the prints as soon as a colour change starts to occur, but before it gets too strong. I find this is easy to see in the artificial light of my darkroom/studio which has daylight balanced fluorescent lights. I don't find the need to use a comparison prints, as some advocate. I put the print in the selenium, watch it like a hawk and as soon as ANY change occurs I pull it out. The effect I am after is a slight darkening in the shadows, a slight increase in contrast. ( I don't want a big colour change) This really enriches the print, giving it more sparkle, and an added depth.
Regarding colour, with Ilford warmtone fibre paper I have found that the colour when selenium toned varies depending on the paper developer used. When I used to use the old Neutol WA I got a cool purplish colour. But with Ilford Warmtone paper developer you get a warmer colour after selenium toning.

Alan
 
Alan, I guess we are doing the same, usually I'm toning enough for the green tinge to disappear and the deepest shadows to add density. It's rare that I use selenium toner to achieve that stronger red shift in the shadows but it can be effective with some images.

Ian
 
Ian, yes. talking about a strong red shift I bet you remember what happened to the old blue label Record Rapid when it came within a 100 yards of selenium toner? I still have some prints from years ago that have that lovely warm colour. But not a colour that is effective with everything, as you say...

Alan
 
Alan, have you seen the Olivia Parker book "Weighing the Planets" it has to be one of my favourite books, she used Selenium split toning exquisitely.

Yes that old Blue label Record Rapid was a superb paper, the newer version had far less flexibility and couldn't get near the same extremes of warmth, it's the nicest (warm tone) paper I've ever used. All the best warm tone papers dissappeared because of the EU and later US ban on the use of Cadmium. The last paper with Cadmium was Ektalure made by Kodak, but it was from a surplus old master rolls made before the bans. Kodak had stopped making Kodacrome years before it's demise they eeked it out slowly from their cold store to achieve it's 50 year anniversary, it had been their flagship film. But even that's a lie because the original early Kodachrome was licensed from a John Thornton Patent, as were Kodaks Film Packs. After being kicked out of Thornton Pickard by the Pickard family John Thorton made a meagre living from his Patent Royalies in the US from Eastman Kodak.

In a similar tone on another UK Forum some Vericrome plates were advertised for sale cheap, I pointed out they weren't made by Kodak and were much older, they must have actually been made by Wratten & Wainwright. Kodak wanted GEK Mees to head their planned research facilities, he insisted George Eastman nought Wratten & Wainwright, and their staff formed Eastman Kodak, Rochester, and Kodak Ltd. Harrow, UK research facilities.

Ian
 
Hi Ian,
No, I've not heard of Olivia Parker. Just looked her up and her work certainly looks interesting and intriguing.

Alan
 
Hi Ian,
No, I've not heard of Olivia Parker. Just looked her up and her work certainly looks interesting and intriguing.

Alan

I also her wark quite intriging, it's not remotely how I work but I find it very refreshing and inspirational, When I was doing my MA at De Montorrt, Leicester, I lent the book to a student Ann and thought I'd never get it back as she loved it so much. She was the only student I had really high regard for on the course, hervwork was superb.

I must try and make a recontection.

Ian
 
Wratten & Wainwright’s local Camera Club was Croydon. The club established a fearsome reputation among judges. Any pronouncement on technical matters would have been made in front of one or another world-class expert on the subject and a swift re-education seems to have been common.
 
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