Making a Lower Grade Negative

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Ian-Barber

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Apart from going out on a really flat day is it posible to make a negative that is designed to work on say Grade 4 paper.

My reason for asking is because some time ago I was given 100 sheets of kentmere 16x12 Grade 4 paper both sealed in 50 sheet boxes and I am thinking how I can best use them.
 
Easier to drop the paper contrast by using a developer like D165/Selectol Soft or Ilford ID-3, they are all the same formula a simple soft working Metol developer. Also, flashing will help as well.

ID-3 Ilford Soft Contrast Developer ​


Metol6 g
Sodium Sulphite (anh)25 g
Sodium Carbonate (anh)37.5 g
Potassium Bromide1 g
Water to1 litre

To use: Dilute 1+ 3​

Concentrated Stock Solutions ID-3​


Part A
Metol12 g60 g
Sodium Sulphite (anh)50 g250 g
Water to1 litre5 litre
Part B
Potassium Bromide2 g10 g
Sodium Carbonate (anh)75 g375 g
Water to1 litre5 litres

To use: Dilute 1 A +1 B + 6 Water​

Films - Dish 12 mins, Tank 15mins 20ºC , Papers 2 mins 20ºC

This developer can be made up as a single or two part solution, but for more critical use the 2 part solution is more consistent.


This is the same formula as Kodak D165, which is similar to Kodak Selectol Soft (Kodak use 37 g Sodium Carbonate in a Single solution)


Ian​






















































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With just ID-3close to Gd 3 with flashing as well, maybe 2.5

Ian
 
Thanks, I just need to go find some Sodium Carbonate (anh) and Potassium Bromide then we are good to go
 
The standard Zone System answer would be to give minus development to the neg. As you want so much contrast reduction, another stop of exposure might be needed to retain the shadows.
It might be wise, as you say to avoid high contrast scenes, but the UK is blessed with plenty of low contrast weather.
Pictures that depend on texture might be good.
 
Increasing exposure and N- may help but my worry there is that I might end up compressing the mid tones in the process.
I could try Pyrocat HD and EMA as that might help with the mid tones
 
There is a way to decrease the paper's contrast chemically, but these days Sodium Dichromate is deemed dangerous, and it is. Essentially you bathe the pap, drops the contrast by about 2 grades in a weak Dichromate solution, wash and dry. I know it works because I've done it to a whole box of Gd 4 Ilfospeed.

It's far easier to use the soft working developer and flashing.

Ian
 
Ive just cut a sheet up and done some experiments with flashing at around 0.8 seconds and I can just see a change so next, I will print a negative which prints fine on G3 and see how it looks.

This Kentmere although perfectly sealed still matbe 10+ years old so it may have dropped a bit anyway
 
Perfectly acceptable print. Well done.
If I may add a minor comment, I’d say that the flashing has flattened the contrast of the face a little. This is looking at my screen, of course, not at the actual print, so I may be wrong. If it were a different object, it wouldn’t matter, but we are programmed to look hard at faces.
One old trick to restore the face would be to pick up the print in the developer and rub the relevant part with warm fingers. It’s only a small effect but…
This is the kind of thing we had to do before Multigrade.
 
David M said:
If I may add a minor comment, I’d say that the flashing has flattened the contrast of the face a little.
Click to expand...

Yes I agree and also the sky upper right has gone a little flat in tone. I am going to make some ID-3 as Ian G has suggested and then try that as well.

All in all, I am pleased that at least I shall be able to use it up rather than it just sat on the darkroom floor
 
Ian Grant said:
There is a way to decrease the paper's contrast chemically, but these days Sodium Dichromate is deemed dangerous, and it is. Essentially you bathe the pap, drops the contrast by about 2 grades in a weak Dichromate solution, wash and dry. I know it works because I've done it to a whole box of Gd 4 Ilfospeed.
Click to expand...

Ian, can this approach to contrast reduction be used after the exposure like SLIMT? What dilution did you use to get two grades drop in contrast? If one has only grade 3 paper for shooting paper negatives, this approach can potentially help in dealing with subject luminance range than otherwise possible.
 
You can bathe paper in Potassium Ferricyanide, or Potassium Dichromate, to reduce its contrast. You put the paper in a 2% solution for around 2 minutes, then wash it well and dry it.

Many years ago I had an unexpected weekend shoot and prints were needed on the Sunday, the only paper a box of Grade 4 Ilfospeed. The first generation of Ilfospeed was developer incorporated, I used to process it with an Ilfoprint Rapid Access processor using homemade activator and Hypam at 1+4 instead of stabiliser.

So I had a box of Gd 4 paper that would develop fully in an alkali solution, so a soft working developer wouldn't make any difference. I used a Potassium Dichromate solution, that, and the washing removed the incorporated developer, and dropped the contrast.

I had 3 darkrooms at work, one for film processing and emulsion manufacture, and a second larger for printing, both with light traps, so you could walk in or out while they were in use. The Safelights were on dimmer switches, so it was easy to bathe the paper, wash it, leave it to dry, but it's not the ideal approach. It worked, but I wouldn't suggest using Dichromate as it's nasty stuff.

You get the same results with ID-3/Di65 and flashing, and it's easier,

The 3rd darkroom, you could turn a long wheelbase Transit/Mercedes van in, it was huge :D as were the enlargements . . . . . . .

Ian
 
I recently accidentally came upon a way to produce thinner, lower contrast negs. I usually mix Pyrocat-HD 1.5 : 1 : 200 for either Semistand or EMA. I am pretty sure I accidentally mixed it 1.5 : 0.5 : 200 - i.e, Half as much part B. This caused noticeable underdevelopment.

The resulting negatives were thinner and flatter than expected, but entirely printable. In this particular case, the image was of a plant, and I was able VC split print it to manage the contrast the way I saw it. I think it turned out rather nicely:


1658184575814.png

Fomapan 200 @ ASA 200, EMA development in Pyrocat-HD as above, with 3min presoak, 2 min initial agitation, and 5 sec agitations at 16, 31, and 46min, total time 60min. (The blown out highlights on the left and white band on the right are scanning artifacts as I have not yet flattened that print, so it was not perfectly flat on the scanner.)

I would note that Steve Sherman's EMA techniques tend to prefer lower CI negatives, so this isn't without precedent.
 
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@Ian-Barber: Last year I came across this interesting variant of SLIMT technique for reducing contrast of film/paper post exposure:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1789186194718562/posts/2585239588446548

Unlike SLIMT which uses homeopathic dilutions of potassium ferricyanide, this new technique uses copper chloride (or equivalently, copper sulphate and sodium chloride) and in easily measurable amount (and hence not as sensitive to small measurement errors as SLIMT). I want to try it some time for paper negatives, but I thought you might find it relevant to your OP.
 
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Not something I have heard of but might prove intetesting reading.
All I did for the image above was to lower the paper contrast by flashing it rather than at the negative end.
 
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