Water As Stop Bath

[Ian-Barber]

As I was perusing YouTube, I watched a video from Dave Butcher who mentioned that using water as a stop bath for paper would shorten the life of the fixer, by how much he never said which got me thinking....

I only ever use water as a stop bath when developing film soo does the same apply

 

[thronobulax]

For historical reasons, I do not use acidic stop bath for film, only for paper. Older films could pinhole when the film was moved from an alkaline developer to a acidic stop. This is not a problem with modern film, but old habits die hard. I use a running water stop bath in an open tank (overflowing at the top) to flush away developer for 30 seconds before putting the film in fix.

 

[Ian Grant]

Technically yes, but in practice the carry over of developer from film that's had a couple of changes of water as a stop bath is negligible, and Ilford, Kodak, etc, recommend stop-bath or a water rinse with films.

DON'T use running water as a stop bath or for washing unless you have accurate temperature control,

Ian

 

[thronobulax]

Technically yes, but in practice the carry over of developer from film that's had a couple of changes of water as a stop bath is negligible, and Ilford, Kodak, etc, recommend stop-bath or a water rinse with films.

DON'T use running water as a stop bath or for washing unless you have accurate temperature control,

Ian

The concerns about matching temps is another holdover from the past. Older films were much more susceptible to reticulation brought on by temperature shock. I have reasonable temp control in my darkroom but I don't use a tempering box or any other precision control mechanism. As long as the running water is within a few degrees (in my case, 4-5 degrees F) of the developer and fix, there is no problem. I've done this for years and have yet to see any reticulation problems. If a particular darkroom goes through 20 degree temp swings, I imagine that might be an issue.

Obviously, this applies only for monochrome films. Colour is a whole other matter where temps must be held very tightly.

 

[Ian-Barber]

Technically yes, but in practice the carry over of developer from film that's had a couple of changes of water as a stop bath is negligible, and Ilford, Kodak, etc, recommend stop-bath or a water rinse with films.

Thats answered that then. It was something I never thought about until watching the vide and it just gone me thinking as I haven't used a commercial stop bath for films for a few years now.

 

[Ian Grant]

The concerns about matching temps is another holdover from the past. Older films were much more susceptible to reticulation brought on by temperature shock. I have reasonable temp control in my darkroom but I don't use a tempering box or any other precision control mechanism. As long as the running water is within a few degrees (in my case, 4-5 degrees F) of the developer and fix, there is no problem. I've done this for years and have yet to see any reticulation problems. If a particular darkroom goes through 20 degree temp swings, I imagine that might be an issue.

Obviously, this applies only for monochrome films. Colour is a whole other matter where temps must be held very tightly.

I have to totally disagree with you. John Davies (one of the UK’s leading landscape photographer) and other University photography lecturers see the results of poor temperature control all too frequently, and the result is greater apparent graininess, that's with students using the same films, developers and fixers etc. The cause is surface artefacts to the gelatin super coat and with 120 sometimes to the rear anti-curl layer is affected as well.

Grant Haist called it incipient reticulation, also known as micro reticulation. While it's true that many modern B&W films are now well hardened, not all are, Foma films have a relatively soft emulsion, so does Fuji Acros as it uses some whale gelatin in its emulsion.

I've seen the extremes of micro reticulation first hand with 120 Tmax 400, I know the batch of film was OK as I'd supplied the two rolls to the photographer, he was shooting images of me for a magazine article. I shot some 35mm Tmax 400 at the same time. He processed the 120 films in my kitchen in replenished Xtol, while I cooked, I realised that the'd only measured the developer temperature, not the stop or fix. I then process my rolls of 35mm. The next day we started to print his negatives which were unusable due to excessive graininess, in contrast the 35mm films had the expected fine grain, I had measured every step, including the wash.

John Davies wrote a piece about the effects of poor temperature control and the subsequent variations in graininess, incipient/micro reticulation doesn't affect the actual film grain itself, just the top gelatin layer. It'something known about since the mid 1920s when wet mounting negatives was first advocated for making enlargements from small negatives, presumably 35mm.

If you want to be lax, so be it, however if you want consistently high quality results then you keep to +/- 1°C of your chosen developing temperature.

Ian

 

[thronobulax]

Hmm, most interesting. It may be that I instinctively keep the running water wash at within 2 degrees F of the developer and hence have not seen these effects. If you have specific citations on all the above, I'd be interested in reading more.

 

[Ian-Barber]

I have to totally disagree with you. John Davies (one of the UK’s leading landscape photographer) and other University photography lecturers see the results of poor temperature control all too frequently, and the result is greater apparent graininess

Did his finding say if the graininess was due to the temperature been to low or to high

 

[Ian Grant]

He didn't say, it was quite broad comments about the poor temperature control, he would have had no idea of what the actual temperature variations were. However, it's more typically when there's a sudden drop, causing the emulsion to shrink, and it affects the gelatin super coating first.~

The issue with using running water here in the UK is what's sat in the pipes in a house/darkroom can be quite a few degrees warmer initially, and then a sudden drop as fresh water at ground temperature comes through.

When I'm in Turkey I work at the tap water temperature which is very consistent, aside from around 6 weeks tin the Winter it's a consistent 26/27°C in fact I can keep the entire cycle developer to wash within +/- 0.2°C. I use a digital thermometer, however I'm not obsessive about that /- 0.2°C, it's purely an observation, the ambient temperatures there are 100% in my favour, temperatures stays stable

Ian

 

[David M]

I’ve seen John Davies develop film and he was extremely fussy about temperature. At the time I thought it was excessive but his results speak for themselves.

 

[thronobulax]

He didn't say, it was quite broad comments about the poor temperature control, he would have had no idea of what the actual temperature variations were. However, it's more typically when there's a sudden drop, causing the emulsion to shrink, and it affects the gelatin super coating first.~

The issue with using running water here in the UK is what's sat in the pipes in a house/darkroom can be quite a few degrees warmer initially, and then a sudden drop as fresh water at ground temperature comes through.

When I'm in Turkey I work at the tap water temperature which is very consistent, aside from around 6 weeks tin the Winter it's a consistent 26/27°C in fact I can keep the entire cycle developer to wash within +/- 0.2°C. I use a digital thermometer, however I'm not obsessive about that /- 0.2°C, it's purely an observation, the ambient temperatures there are 100% in my favour, temperatures stays stable

Ian

I have an inline thermometer in my faucet system. I let the water run for a bit to flush the pipes an establish the desired temp. I then develop the film. A few minutes before developer completion, I start the water running again, which gives it time to - once again - flush the standing water in the pipes and return to the preset temp. I've never had an issue doing this. The only thing that interferes with this process is if other water demand takes place during this time - someone washing clothers, taking a shower, and so on. But, I confer with others in the home before developing film to avoid this issue.