D-23 1:1 SemiStand

Ian-Barber

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Following on from a previous discussion where @thronobulax talked about how he uses D-23 1:1 SemiStand got me interested.
I did a couple of tests on 35mm and was quite impressed with the results so today I decided to do some more tests on some FomaPan 400 120-roll film.

I appreciate these are not 4x5 but as it's part of a developer discussion and not for showcasing, I guess it's ok to post them on here.
All exposures were made at box speed 400 ISO and some were deliberately over and under-exposed a bit just to see how the semi-stand coped.

Same method as before.
  • 3 minute Pre Soak
  • 2 minute constant agitation
  • Rest for 30 minutes
  • 15 seconds agitation
  • Rest for 30 minutes
The negatives are clean, with no signs of uneven development at all.
These are straight scans from an Epson V800 with no adjustments applied

Hooton Pagnell 03.jpgHooton Pagnell 04.jpgHooton Pagnell 05.jpgHooton Pagnell 08.jpg
 
I think you've got this technique down pretty well.

The first one showcases how this can help hold a long SBR, particularly given that Foma 400 is notorious for excessive contrast, and you got this at full box speed, to boot. Again, there are other ways to do this, certainly, but the range of light in that image from the distant shadows to the directly illuminated arch of the entrance is captured nicely by semistand.

As I've noted before, this kind of development approach is unforgiving of underexposure. No amount of standing will recover what wasn't captured on the negative. Since you're using full box speed, you don't have a lot of room for error. It can handle over exposure to a point. However, to my eye at least, when you do overexpose, you lose some of the midtone microcontrast that really makes the image "pop" because everything slides up the H/D curve, but that could just be my imagination.

When I do exposure placement, I normally only consider how place Zone III properly for the relevant shadows (not all shadows, because I have no objection to some shadows going black when the image benefits thereby). Because I often have to meter at a distance and cannot always isolate the "relevant" shadow, I typically take a couple exposures - one placed for what I believe to be the proper placement as best as I can judge it, and another with 1/2 stop more exposure as my "just in case" negative.

I normally don't much worry about highlight placement because I am using a semi-compensating developer (Pyrocat-HD) or a compensating developer (D-23) that will rein in very bright highlights. Moreover, because the film is standing for long periods of time, highlight development will stop relatively quickly as the developer exhausts due to lack of agitation. I easily have captured SBRs of 10 stops or even more this way.

I say "normally" because there are a couple cases where you have to think a bit differently. First, what to do with REALLY long SBRs. For example, shooting into the dark interior of a room with very bright light pouring into a window where you want to hold detail looking out that window.

The other case is when you have an overall really long SBR but the midtone areas lack dynamic range. For example, looking into a shaded wooden textured wall with little midtone range of light but with bright sun hitting some other part of the image, like a metal roof. This is where you want to use EMA to crank up the midtone local contrast a bunch. But EMA has more frequent agitations and the compensating effect due to developer exhaustion is less pronounced (because each agitation refreshes the highlights with new developer.)

In both these cases, I just dilute Pyrocat-HD more than usual. Instead of 1.5:1:200, I'll use 1.5:1:250 or even 1.5:1.300 to tame really long SBRs. I've not tried higher dilutions of D-23 for this because there is so little Metol in the stuff to begin with, I question whether you'd get good results with further dilution. Perhaps a test for another time.

What this all boils down to is to shoot at box speed, expose for the shadows, and adjust for the highlights only when- or as necessary via developer dilution. The long standing time at any of the aforementioned dilutions should pretty much give you the shadow detail you want (or close to it, you should experimentally confirm this).

This is unlike the more conventional Zone System advice of finding your personal ASA via endless densiometric tests, measuring the scene SBR and then doing N+ or N- development accordingly. Oh, and you get to do that for every single new developer/film combination.

In this sense, semistand/EMA is actually simpler to use, albeit at the cost of much longer development times. We simply hold development time constant and in some cases, change dilution - for any dilute developer you care to try and any film. That's it. I've personally tried this with a variety of Pyrocat-HD dilutions, D-23 1:1, HC-110 1:128 and with at least 10 different films total in various combinations. And it's always worked as expected. It even worked just fine with 60 year old Super XX sheet film! The only thing that likely won't work here is very rapidly oxidizing developer like PMK Pyro.

One other thing I want to try is to duplicate the old "dip and dunk" development procedure practiced by local photo shops many decades ago. It's essentially a much longer version of semistand. You load the film into your reel or pinch hanger or whatever, give it a good vigorous agitation for a few minutes and let stand for an hour or two towards the end of the day. Then you give it another good 30-60 seconds agitation or so, drop it in developer, and let it sit overnight to be stopped, fixed, and washed in the morning. Supposedly, this was a common practice in retail photo shops many years ago. Oh, and the developers the labs used was ... D-23. It's likely they did so because they couldn't guarantee that their customers were practicing good exposure hygiene. Doing extended semistand would extract maximum shadow detail while still preserving highlights. What I do not know (and thus want to try) is whether modern films will tolerate such long standing times.

P.S. I know you probably weren't shooting for art's sake, but I really like the aesthetic of the image 3 though I'd love to see the entirety of the "button" in the upper right to balance off the picture.
 
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I really like the door with the strap hinge and knocker.
 
Hello @thronobulax and @Ian-Barber, if you're going to continue in this path, you may want to try D-23 1:10 semi-stand or minimal agitation. Add about 0.5g of lye (aka sodium hydroxide) to the working solution - note that adding lye is absolutely necessary and without it negatives will be underdeveloped. You'll get crisp grain (might not matter so much for sheet film), better acutance and greater economy with this dilution of D-23 than the more popular ones. At dilution 1:10 and with addition of lye, D-23 is similar to the caustic-Metol developers of yesteryears in working.

Same idea works with D-76 as well.
 
Hello @thronobulax and @Ian-Barber, if you're going to continue in this path, you may want to try D-23 1:10 semi-stand or minimal agitation. Add about 0.5g of lye (aka sodium hydroxide) to the working solution - note that adding lye is absolutely necessary and without it negatives will be underdeveloped. You'll get crisp grain (might not matter so much for sheet film), better acutance and greater economy with this dilution of D-23 than the more popular ones. At dilution 1:10 and with addition of lye, D-23 is similar to the caustic-Metol developers of yesteryears in working.

Same idea works with D-76 as well.

Interesting, thanks for the idea. Some questions if I may:

  1. Is the 0.5g of lye independent of developer volume? That is, what is the ratio of lye to working strength developer?
  2. Can borax be used instead, and, if so, in what proportion?
  3. Has this highly dilute approach also been used with DK-50?
 
  1. Is the 0.5g of lye independent of developer volume? That is, what is the ratio of lye to working strength developer?
  2. Can borax be used instead, and, if so, in what proportion?
  3. Has this highly dilute approach also been used with DK-50?

  1. If you already have D-23 stock, then this will give you 1 l of working solution:
    Water: 900 ml
    D-23 stock: 100 ml
    Lye: 0.5 g

    If you'll be mixing fresh, then use this formula:
    Water: 1 l
    Metol: 0.75 g
    Sodium sulphite: 10 g
    Lye: 0.5 g

    0.5g is a good starting point for Lye in the above formula. You may want to increase/decrease it a bit for specific films depending on the results.

  2. Borax will not work as it is too weak an alkali to energise the developer at this dilution to do proper development. Sodium carbonate also gives somewhat underdeveloped negatives.
  3. I have not tried it with DK-50. Looking at the formula of DK-50, I guess it will work at dilution 1:5 with the same amount of lye.
 
Thanks for that. I've avoided lye because of all the safety warnings, but further reading seems to indicate it can be safely handled if one pays attention,

I am curious what about the DK-50 formula led you to the 1:5 figure. Is there some calculus here you can share?
 
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I am curious what about the DK-50 formula led you to the 1:5 figure. Is there some calculus here you can share?

There's no formula or at least I'm not aware of one. :) It was a guess based on the fact that 1 l working solution of D-76 1:10 dilution contains 0.2g of Metol and 0.5 g of Hydroquinone whereas 1 l working solution of DK-50 1:5 dilution contains 0.5g of Metol and 0.5 g of Hydroquinone. I know from my experience that lye spiked D-76 1:10 dilution develops film and gives very decent results. So lye spiked DK-50 1:5 dilution can be expected to work ok.
 
  1. If you already have D-23 stock, then this will give you 1 l of working solution:
    Water: 900 ml
    D-23 stock: 100 ml
    Lye: 0.5 g

    If you'll be mixing fresh, then use this formula:
    Water: 1 l
    Metol: 0.75 g
    Sodium sulphite: 10 g
    Lye: 0.5 g

    0.5g is a good starting point for Lye in the above formula. You may want to increase/decrease it a bit for specific films depending on the results.

  2. Borax will not work as it is too weak an alkali to energise the developer at this dilution to do proper development. Sodium carbonate also gives somewhat underdeveloped negatives.
  3. I have not tried it with DK-50. Looking at the formula of DK-50, I guess it will work at dilution 1:5 with the same amount of lye.


Geoffrey Crawley listed Dilute DK-50 in BJP Almanals using Kodalk/Sodium Metaborate

Part A
DK-50

Part B
Kodalk 1 oz or 83.3g
Water to 10oz or 1 litre.

To use 2 parts A + 1 part B + 7 parts water Dev times are 12-14 mins at 20º

Ian
 
Oh, nice! So that's DK-50 1:5 dilution (plus 8.33 g Metaborate per litre of working solution). :) Should give this a try one of these days. TFS Ian.


[Edit:
"[gives] a useful balance of natural acutance, gradation and speed qualities with controlled contrast rise"

"it works very well producing acutrence (sic) similar to the Beutler formula"
]
 
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Geoffrey Crawley listed Dilute DK-50 in BJP Almanals using Kodalk/Sodium Metaborate

Part A
DK-50

Part B
Kodalk 1 oz or 83.3g
Water to 10oz or 1 litre.

To use 2 parts A + 1 part B + 7 parts water Dev times are 12-14 mins at 20º

Ian

Oh, I have to try this. I have the better part of 2 dozen or so original Kodak DK-50 cans sitting here and Borax to spare.

Thanks for the heads up.
 
  1. If you already have D-23 stock, then this will give you 1 l of working solution:
    Water: 900 ml
    D-23 stock: 100 ml
    Lye: 0.5 g

    If you'll be mixing fresh, then use this formula:
    Water: 1 l
    Metol: 0.75 g
    Sodium sulphite: 10 g
    Lye: 0.5 g

    0.5g is a good starting point for Lye in the above formula. You may want to increase/decrease it a bit for specific films depending on the results.

  2. Borax will not work as it is too weak an alkali to energise the developer at this dilution to do proper development. Sodium carbonate also gives somewhat underdeveloped negatives.
  3. I have not tried it with DK-50. Looking at the formula of DK-50, I guess it will work at dilution 1:5 with the same amount of lye.

Just a fine point - and I doubt it makes much difference ... What you've described is a 1:9 dilution, not 1:10 as originally suggested.
 
I always thought 1:10 stood for 1+9. But the formula I gave earlier is what I used and should work fine as is.
 
I always thought 1:10 stood for 1+9. But the formula I gave earlier is what I used and should work fine as is.

This is kind of a pedantic point but it triggers my mathematical OCD.

When we say "x:y", we are saying how many "parts" of each we want.

So, 1:10, would mean 1 part developer, 10 parts water. That means the final solution will be 1/11th developer or around 9%. At least that's how I've always understood it. So, for example, when the instructions for Pyrocat-HD say, 1:1:100, I read that as "1 part A, 1 part B, and 100 parts water."

In your suggested mixture, we get 1 part developer and 9 parts water and thus a solution that is 10% developer. As you say, this should make no practical difference.

Like I said, this is just my need for numerical order and certainly not a criticism.

I plan to try this concoction this very week.
 
Yes.
Photographic dilutions seem to observe the convention of the plus (+) sign where the components are given their true values. Thus 1+2 is three parts in all, one of the reageant and two of water and the reageant forms one third of the fianl mix. 1:2 has one part reageant in a total quantity of two units, so the reageant forms half of the final mix.
At dilutions involving 100, the practical difference between 1+99 and 1+100 is very small, but the difference between a third and a half is considerable.
It might help to hold the idea that 1:2 could be re-written as 1/2, whereas 1+2 is 3.
Presumably there is some historical reason for this, as either system, properly applied, would give the same result. Does anyone know?
 
Thus 1+2 is three parts in all, one of the reageant and two of water and the reageant forms one third of the fianl mix. 1:2 has one part reageant in a total quantity of two units, so the reageant forms half of the final mix.


Yes, this is why I thought 1:10 is equivalent to 1+9.
 
Yes, exactly.
I'm afraid our education system doesn't always equip people for photography. It doesn't even teach them to cook. Hence the confusion.
Some mixing instructions also include the direction to "make up to 1 litre" (or whatever the final volume might be.) This is typically where some or all of the ingredients have to be dissolved. The final volume of some solutions is not necessarily the same as the volume of liquid plus the volume of solids.
I rather think that in practice, photography can tolerate quite large deviations from numerical perfection, because (at least in the case of Large Format film photography) the process is almost continuously monitored by a very interested party, from initial click to hanging the print.
 
Yes.
Photographic dilutions seem to observe the convention of the plus (+) sign where the components are given their true values. Thus 1+2 is three parts in all, one of the reageant and two of water and the reageant forms one third of the fianl mix. 1:2 has one part reageant in a total quantity of two units, so the reageant forms half of the final mix.
At dilutions involving 100, the practical difference between 1+99 and 1+100 is very small, but the difference between a third and a half is considerable.
It might help to hold the idea that 1:2 could be re-written as 1/2, whereas 1+2 is 3.
Presumably there is some historical reason for this, as either system, properly applied, would give the same result. Does anyone know?

So I remain confused ... and I thought I actually understood this ;)

I concur with your explanation of the X+Y notation.

But I've always understood "X:Y" as a ratio.

I thus find this confusing: 1:2 has one part reageant in a total quantity of two units, so the reageant forms half of the final mix

In all of Kodak's notation, as just one example, when you see things like "D-76 1:1" it means "1 part D-76 and 1 part water". So wouldn't it thus follow that the notation, say, "1:3" would similarly mean, "I part D-76 and 3 parts water". So, by that reasoning, "1:2" would give you a working solution that is 1/3 reagent?

As you point out, in very dilute solutions, the difference is negligible. But, say, even at, 1:5, reading your way gives one a 20% reagent solution but by my understanding it would be 16.67% which is, I think at least somewhat relevant.

I'm not being argumentative here, I'm genuinely curious on how this stuff should be read. These notational shorthands introduce all manner of opportunity to mess things up. The better way for this to be stated is explicitly as "Add this many parts/grams/oz to this many parts/grams/oz." I do find the X+Y notation to be unambiguous and clear, however.

See Also:

https://ell.stackexchange.com/quest...e-proportion-13-mean-in-the-following-example
 
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