Where does modern digital LF start?

Yes indeed. We are discussing cameras. Any negative can be printed to any size. This isn't a claim that it will make an excellent print, merely a big one.
I think that Joanna's original point was that she no longer needed a large format negative, as she had in the past, to produce the size of prints she wanted with the kind of quality she preferred. All illustrated with numerical examples.
From this experience, she was then asking if the expression "large format" could be transferred to digital sensors. I think the sense of the meeting has been that, for a variety of reasons, it might be a step too far.
At least for the moment. I'd prefer that the digital community devised their own vocabulary.

I was intrigued to discover that there is indeed a 5x4 sensor, but with very low resolution. Under traditional definitions, that would qualify as large format, despite the inferior quality, so this is not as straightforward an argument as we might have supposed.
 
Nonsense. What's been shown is whilst the exact sizes referred to as "large" or "small" etc has drifted over time, the format nomenclature has always related to the plate/film size, and never the print size. Hence the another above said; "But in no case, was the format described in terms of the output size, only the "capture" size."

It's funny how, when fine grained 35mm film and enlargers became commonplace, 35mm film didn't suddenly start being called 'Large format" because you could easily produce 10x8" or bigger prints, isn't it? Maybe at the time there were people who used to shoot big plates, but weren't into it any more, who tried and failed to persuade their peers to rename it, but I guess we'll never know as, thankfully, the internet wasn't around then. ;)

Well, before WWII 120 cameras were called miniature format along with 127 & 35mm. Medium format was quarter plate to Whole plate, 10x8 was the boundary of large format and then 12x10, 15x12 were large formats,.

Half plate and Whole plate were the formats for serious amateurs, Quarter plate was budget. 10x8 and larger were serious professional formats.

Ian
 
Most of various definitions of what constitutes a LF camera have exceptions, not all have movements, some old models used roll film (wider than 4") Even just taking the 5x4" minimum sensor/film area there are LF like models that fail that (quarter plate cameras with movements) or roll film back on a LF camera...

Personally I'd be happy to include digital cameras where the effective sensor size approaches 5x4" (Number of pixels is irrelevant).
This can be done with scanning backs (my mortgage won't stretch to one, though there are apparently DIY solutions)
or by stitching multiple shots from a more normal digital camera - note FF is 26 times smaller than 5x4, and over lap is needed for stitching so this would probably involve at least 40 FF shots. To qualify properly a stitched shot should use a lens that is not moved during the multiple shots...
 
Most of various definitions of what constitutes a LF camera have exceptions, not all have movements, some old models used roll film (wider than 4") Even just taking the 5x4" minimum sensor/film area there are LF like models that fail that (quarter plate cameras with movements) or roll film back on a LF camera...

Personally I'd be happy to include digital cameras where the effective sensor size approaches 5x4" (Number of pixels is irrelevant).
This can be done with scanning backs (my mortgage won't stretch to one, though there are apparently DIY solutions)
or by stitching multiple shots from a more normal digital camera - note FF is 26 times smaller than 5x4, and over lap is needed for stitching so this would probably involve at least 40 FF shots. To qualify properly a stitched shot should use a lens that is not moved during the multiple shots...

Well, there are already plenty of good fora for just that - Photrio leaps to mind.

What I really like about this site is that @Ian-Barber has specifically set it up to cover chemical film photography whether reproduced in silver, palladium, platinum, carbon, cyanotype or ... um ... digitally. That narrowness of mission helps people here learn the arcana of chemical photography in the tradition of the larger film negative. This is a daunting learning curve for the beginner and a never ending source of growth for the experienced practitioner. Since the death of "View Camera" magazine, there's not been much of this sort of thing about. This has the secondary benefit of bringing experts in old camera and lens technologies to the discussion - again, something being incrementally lost.

If there were any expansion of mission - and it's certainly not my call, it's entirely Ian's - it would be to include 6cm film formats as well, not digital. When this has come up in the past, the response has been "That's fine if you're illustrating a particular compositional or chemical technique, but general purpose 'medium' format is out of bounds." I have thus observed this since.
 
A couple of years ago I had the opportunity to buy a 10x8 Thornton Tourist camera, in near mint condition. It had a detachable10x8 roll film back which was almost certainly a prototype. It was missing the circular lens board, which rotated and could carry 3 lenses, at the same time, of different focal lengths. It was marked Thornton so predated thef ormation of Thornton Pickard in 1888.

Ian
 
Johanna is quite right. Digital technology can now exceed the limits of 5x4.

Respectfully, I question this.

Digital technology may be approaching similar levels of resolution. It arguably still isn't there in dynamic range (which why serious digisnappers still resort to HDR compositing techniques).

But even if these were at par or better, digital still isn't a replacement for traditional film image capture. Why? Because it doesn't look the same. Now, I'm assured that if a digital source is projected onto an analogue surface - say, like a Lambda print or a very high end desktop printer - you get the same output. Having seen neither, I cannot comment with any authority, but I am gently suspicious. Film has a very specific look brought about via the acutance at the grain edges, the shape of the HD curve, the tonal smoothness (esp with large negatives) and so forth. I have yet to see a digital implementation of a monochrome film negative that is the full equivalent.

Colour is another matter. All colour films - negative or transparency - always had some fairly horrendous rendering limitation. Even the absolutely stunning K25 had hard to harness contrast and a bad habit of making highlights blow out. So for our chromatically engaged friends, I think digital has actually exceeded anything film could ever do. But here again, the look is entirely different.

Note that I am not specifying one look as objectively "better' than the other, merely different. And I like the film kind of different ...
 
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I think that Joanna's original point was that she no longer needed a large format negative, as she had in the past, to produce the size of prints she wanted with the kind of quality she preferred.

Indeed.

At least for the moment. I'd prefer that the digital community devised their own vocabulary.

That does seem to already be the case.

Under traditional definitions, that would qualify as large format, despite the inferior quality, so this is not as straightforward an argument as we might have supposed.

it is these kinds of "anomalies" that I thought would make for an interesting discussion.

by stitching multiple shots from a more normal digital camera - note FF is 26 times smaller than 5x4, and over lap is needed for stitching so this would probably involve at least 40 FF shots. To qualify properly a stitched shot should use a lens that is not moved during the multiple shots...

Yipes! I am well aware of that technique and, not being a fan of spending hours in front of Photoshop, I would definitely avoid it.

Digital technology may be approaching similar levels of resolution. It arguably still isn't there in dynamic range (which why serious digisnappers still resort to HDR compositing techniques).

Now, that is where a lot of film photographers have not taken the time to study and learn the reality of modern digital cameras.

My Nikon D850 has a dynamic range of just over 14 stops but, to properly benefit from that range, in much the same way that I had to learn how to use a modified version of the Zone System. Instead of spot measuring from zone 3 for barely perceptible shadow detail, I spot measure the brightest area at around 2-3 stops above 0EV (18% grey). This then gives 11 stops below 0EV before losing deep shadow detail.

There is an example of an LF image I took, using the traditional zone system, with 14 stops range, on our website https://grandes-images.com/en/Heritage_&_Restoration.html#14. If you look on our Flickr pages https://www.flickr.com/photos/144326716@N02/albums/72177720322841817/, you will see plenty of our images taken with the "digital zone system".

But even if these were at par or better, digital still isn't a replacement for traditional film image capture. Why? Because it doesn't look the same. Now, I'm assured that if a digital source is projected onto an analogue surface - say, like a Lambda print or a very high end desktop printer - you get the same output. Having seen neither, I cannot comment with any authority, but I am gently suspicious. Film has a very specific look brought about via the acutance at the grain edges, the shape of the HD curve, the tonal smoothness (esp with large negatives) and so forth. I have yet to see a digital implementation of a monochrome film negative that is the full equivalent

I'm sorry to say that this simply is no longer true. With quality processing software, such as provided by DxO, film emulation has risen to previously unknown levels and, whether it is a high end inkjet printer or a lambda printer, I would defy anyone to say whether a well processed print was of digital or analogue origin.

But, since the only way to tell would be to exchange physical prints and, given the fact that every analogue photographer I have challenged has been too scared to participate, we may never know.

Having said that, the challenge is still open if you are interested.
 
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Colour is another matter. All colour films - negative or transparency - always had some fairly horrendous rendering limitation. Even the absolutely stunning K25 had hard to harness contrast and a bad habit of making highlights blow out. So for our chromatically engaged friends, I think digital has actually exceeded anything film could ever do. But here again, the look is entirely different.

The secret of K25, as used by National Geographic photographers and advertising photographers, was under exposure. I used to subscribe to Zoom magazine and there were stunning images made on K25, particularly advertising for US cigarette companies. I can think of two UK photographers who used K25 with amazing results.

Often it was used at 40 or 50EI, slightly too dense for normal projection, however that increased colour density, and was ideal for colour lithography, and huge US advertising billboards were made incorporating 35mm K25 images.

That brings us back to print size, and something unsaid - viewing distance.

Ian
 
Now, that is where a lot of film photographers have not taken the time to study and learn the reality of modern digital cameras.

I have a D750 which is reasonably modern and multibillion color calibrated monitor. So ... I'm at least in the ballpark of this technology

My Nikon D850 has a dynamic range of just over 14 stops but, to properly benefit from that range, in much the same way that I had to learn how to use a

I have captured more than 14 stop SBRs on film, albeit with compression of the midtones and/or other film development trickery. But this sort of doesn't really matter considering that no viewing media can faithfully reproduce this range of light - not analogue, not digital. In all cases, we use the very large SBR captured by the sensor/film and map it down to something considerably shorter.

The other point of relevance here is that the digisnapper's ability to capture that kind of SBR is typically limited to very low ASAs. At the higher ASAs, the noise performance of the sensor becomes the limiting factor (I think, I have not confirmed this).

modified version of the Zone System. Instead of spot measuring from zone 3 for barely perceptible shadow detail, I spot measure the brightest area at around 2-3 stops above 0EV (18% grey). This then gives 11 stops below 0EV before losing deep shadow detail.

Yes, you have to meter much like we did for transparency film - to protect the highlights.

There is an example of an LF image I took, using the traditional zone system, with 14 stops range, on our website https://grandes-images.com/en/Heritage_&_Restoration.html#14. If you look on our Flickr pages, you will see plenty of our images taken with the "digital zone system".

And it's a fine image in its own right. It simply doesn't look like a film image, at least to my eye.

I'm sorry to say that this simply is no longer true. With quality processing software, such as provided by DxO, film emulation has risen to previously unknown levels and, whether it is a high end inkjet printer or a lambda printer, I would defy anyone to say whether a well processed print was of digital or analogue origin.

As it happens, I have had the opportunity to have the D750 images printed optically onto RA-4 type paper. The results were excellent, but they simply didn't look like film. They had a different quality unto themselves. Not better, not worse, just different.

I suspect that whether you an tell the difference has a lot to do with the subject matter and maturity of the viewer. Some years ago, a friend who was making the transition from analogue to digital printing sent me a box of prints to see if I could tell which was which. They covered a range of topics from landscapes to portraits to boudoir. The results? I properly identified every single monochrome image, but scored only 50% accuracy on the colour stuff. My lifelong attention to silver monochrome made my eyes see that with far greater fidelity.

I stipulate that this technology has come a ways since that time, and have little doubt that better software and printing is now at hand, but still, the point stands.
But, since the only way to tell would be to exchange physical prints and, given the fact that every analogue photographer I have challenged has refused to participate, we may never know.

Having said that, the challenge is still open if you are intereste.

I am not sure what you're asking. The point isn't to compare my analogue work to your digital stuff - let us agree that we are both high end practioners. The point would be for you to provide your best images, rendered on both traditional silver enlargments and on the printer output of choice to see if people like me could tell the difference. The problem isn't reluctance on my part, it's that damn pond between us ;)

I have no question that age will inevitably take me out of the darkroom, and the technology will march along until it does, but for now anyway, I prefer the smell of fixer ...

P.S. I spend more time (and money) than I should in Leicaland. I am ever amused to see someone spending $10K US for an M11 body and another $20K US for top tier APO lenses when the sole output they ever produce is 8bit JPGs ;)
 
The secret of K25, as used by National Geographic photographers and advertising photographers, was under exposure. I used to subscribe to Zoom magazine and there were stunning images made on K25, particularly advertising for US cigarette companies. I can think of two UK photographers who used K25 with amazing results.

Often it was used at 40 or 50EI, slightly too dense for normal projection, however that increased colour density, and was ideal for colour lithography, and huge US advertising billboards were made incorporating 35mm K25 images.

That brings us back to print size, and something unsaid - viewing distance.

Ian

Yes, I remember much the same thing and oh how I miss that film, and for that matter, the output of those NatGeo photographers.

I think digital has properly eclipsed this. If I were still intent on doing commercial work (shudder), there is no question I would have a pure digital workflow. Doing otherwise would be economic suicide. But I love the look of a silver print. I love the way grain is rendered as perceved sharpness. I love the tooth and texture of silver papers (nothwithstanding the fact that the old Ektalure and Opal surfaces are no longer to be found). I love the way the light reflects off of said prints.

As an aside - When music recording first transitioned from vinyl to CD, the results were dreadful. The new medium was too precise. It very accurately reproduced every bad recording habit, ambinent noise source, and any weakness in the reproduction chain from noise, to harmonic distortion, to transient or slew induced distortion. In time, these came to be remedied and serious digital recording of things like symphonies and classical ensembles now are quite common. While I own many of these, they still feel a bit sterile to me sometimes. The very limitations of the old analogue recording and reproduction chain gave the resulting sound a kind of depth that is often missing in the newer clinical recordings. It is for this reason I refuse to move to one of the newer digitally augmented amplifier chains, preferring instead to have a pure analogue amplification experience. In fairness, at least some of this has as much to do with the choices modern recording engineers make (which can be really awful) as compared to the great engineers of the 1950s and 1960s at Telefunken, Deutsche-Grammaphon, and EMI.

Perhaps that's what is going on when I view digitially produced phnotographs. My inner wiring may see that flawless sharpness and perfect rendering as "unnatural" photography as compared to what I'm used to seeing. My brain may quietly be sending off the alarm that I am looking at visual fraud. I don't know.
 
Oddly a Youtube weekly video photographer (Ari Jaaksi) discusses similar on this weeks video.Worth a look.

​

 
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This thread has become totally ridiculous. It is not about LF photography.

It reminds me of an argument on the LFP.info forum a few years ago about 6x17 not being a LF format. The website ultimately decided it wasn't. However, you need to use lenses that cover 7"x5", and it's the same with enlargers it's too wide for a 5"x4" enlarger. There is some validity for claiming 6x17 is quasi large format, based on the lenses and enlargers needed.

There's no point flogging a dead horse claiming a Digital camera (with no movements) are Large Format. It's chalk & cheese.

This thread has reached closure.

Ian
 
Oddly a Youtube weekly video photographer (Ari Jaaksi) discusses similar on this weeks video.Worth a look

A very interesting video.

Let me give you my thoughts as both a film and digital photographer. Before I had ever used an LF camera, I used to have a Pentax ME Super, which was very limiting, due to its minute negative size.

Can you imagine the joy I felt upon using an LF camera when I could finally, not just make larger prints but, also, control the dynamic range, contrast, etc of an individual shot without having to burn a whole roll of film?

But I had to knuckle down and learn all the tricks of the trade, studying other photographers and their techniques. But, due to a lack of space in my house there was no way I could wet print, so I was constrained to scanning and producing a print on an inkjet printer.

So, I now ended up being a "hybrid" LF photographer, not out of choice but necessity. I had to learn the digital equivalent of dodging and burning but also enjoying the fact that I could remove dust spots once and forever, rather than on each print.

Now, because I had to use scanning to print, does that then disqualify me from calling myself a film photographer? Surely not. Otherwise a great many folks new to LF would never print anything due to lack of space in modern accommodation.

Back in 2005, digital was only just starting and I bought a Nikon D100, not to replace my LF, but to give me a lightweight camera that didn't require me to go through the whole wet processing business. Not to replace making the great large prints that my Ebony could produce but, as a point and shoot camera that I could pick up and put down and not be constrained to use a tripod - a snapshot camera.

But, as the years passed, digital cameras got better until, in 2021, I felt that the Nikon D850 had sufficient resolution to create sufficiently large prints to rival the Ebony (at least, size wise).

Still firmly believing that LF film was unbeatable for large print quality, I held on to the Ebony but started to find that, with the right software, I could no longer say that was so.

So, then it was a case of learning how to master this new beast, finding digital processing techniques that I would need to replace film processing techniques.

One thing that Ari mentions is his video is that he finds it useful to choose the film before the subject, in order to imbue the resulting image with the atmosphere that he felt the film would give him - a sort of aid to pre-visualisation.

I get the impression that a lot of dyed in the wool film photographers imagine that digital photography is "easier" and requires less thought and preparation. However, I have always sought to "make" images rather than taking snaps, so it can take me every bit as much time and effort to get to the point of pressing the shutter.

Yes, one can "just apply a filter" after the event, but that is not photography as I know it. If I am to be successful in creating the "perfect" image, I have to set the camera up to give me the end result after processing that I have in my mind. If I needed a red filter to darken the sky with film, I would not be able to use a physical filter but I would have to expose with consideration as to how the software filter would affect the final processing. With both film and digital one has to pre-visualise what the result will be because shooting RAW images is similar to shooting film, in that you don't get to see the final result until after processing.

Compare this unprocessed RAW image…

JNA_0007_2_DxO.jpg

… with the final result after processing…

JNA_0007_3_DxO.jpg

When I pressed the shutter, I already knew what would be needed, in terms of exposure, contrast and filter, to achieve the end result - hardly a snapshot ;)

As to choice of film affecting the end result, I virtually always use Fuji Acros 100 film in the Ebony, because for most images, I detest grain and I know and like its tendency to be partially orthochromatic. So, I use the Fuji Acros 100 emulation in my DxO software and, lo and behold, I get exactly the same finished look as I would expect from the film.



Let me emphasise, as did Ari, it's not about one being better than the other, it's about the process that you prefer to use. For Ari, like many here, it's the darkroom process. For me, it's about the time and effort I have invested in perfecting a digital workflow that takes just as much time and effort as film and gives results every bit as good. I use Fuji Acros 100 film and I use Fuji Acros 100 film emulation. I have 30"x24" prints from both lab wet process and home digital on the wall - experienced photographers can't tell the difference - I am always gobsmacked at the quality of both.



Oh, and as for lack of movements on digital cameras, this is only relevant if you don't use tilt/shift lenses that are available or, as I do, leverage the hyperfocal distance and an optimum aperture to avoid diffraction, for front to back sharpness in landscapes. You only have to look at the work of the f/64 group to see that, with the lack of diffraction on LF cameras, you don't always need movements unless you are getting artistic :)



All of which in no way contradicts that, if you have the wherewithal to use a fully analogue workflow, you should go ahead and do so. But, for those of us who can't accommodate an LF enlarger, capable of 30" x 24" prints, the best we can do is a hybrid workflow but, at least, we can always send the scanned and processed file to Harman or Picto for a silver print.



At which point, just as LF for film is a moving target, I ask again, in a forum section which is not exclusively about film and not about one versus the other - where, in your opinion, does LF digital start?
 
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I don't know where your heading with this @Joanna Carter.

This forum is about Large Format Film Photography and nor for showcasing work from a digital camera regarless of whether you think it is Large Format or not.

If you want to display your digital work then there are plenty of other platforms which will gladly accept it
 
This forum is about Large Format Film Photography and nor for showcasing work from a digital camera regarless of whether you think it is Large Format or not.

In that case, why is this particular section labeled…

Talk About Anything Photography Related ?​


Does it need renaming?



At least folks were talking instead of just lurking
 
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Joanna, you haven't done yourself any favours by showing us your black and white photo of the white cloud. When you write about how you make your black and white digital photos you sound like a real expert. But this photo looks like it was put together by a beginner, who didn't really know what they were doing.
You have told us several times about the wonderful black and white digital photos you make at a print size of 30 or 40 inches. I'm wondering, with dismay, if this is one. You must think it is good or you wouldn't have chosen it as an example of your work. If so, blimey! I daren't say any more or I will sound rude.....
 
Firstly, can I say that digital photography really can be extremely easy. The fact that it can also be made extremely complicated doesn't alter this. It's difficult to postulate that the skill, or lack of it, employed by the photographer has any bearing on the size and nature of the apparatus used.
This leads us on to Joanna's question: "Where does LF digital start?" I think we are working our way to saying that we don't know.
It seems to be a straightforward enquiry. (Although I'm beginning to wonder why anyone would want to know.)
I submit that we cannot possibly define anything on the basis of what might or might not happen in the future. So the fact that very large prints can be made makes no more sense than saying that Michelangelo used Large Format brushes for the Sistine Chapel.
If a client decides that instead of a very large display print, a postcard will suffice, does the camera that was used to take it become Small Format? It seems doubtful. We must discount the final result as an arbiter of the camera's dimensions.
In photography, either digital or film, we can, with more or less trouble, print any original to any size we choose. I've seen small cartoon drawings enlarged to paper a room, all wet processed. I've seen a digital view from space where the Earth is represented by single green pixel. We could multiply examples.
My conclusion is that there is no boundary at which a digital sensor becomes Large Format. It can certainly be large, rather as Hadron colliders and Telescope arrays can be large, even Very Large.
As far as I can see, the only boundary between LF and other kinds of wet photography is the general use of sheet film. I know, I know, I know, everybody and his black-and-white cat knows, that there are all sorts of interesting exceptions and fascinating deviations from this. It's the best general statement I can offer.
All is not lost. Digital technology is moving so fast that some definition may well evolve. See how much interest it has generated. Something may yet come of it.
See what you started, madam.
 
Joanna, you haven't done yourself any favours by showing us your black and white photo of the white cloud. When you write about how you make your black and white digital photos you sound like a real expert. But this photo looks like it was put together by a beginner, who didn't really know what they were doing.
You have told us several times about the wonderful black and white digital photos you make at a print size of 30 or 40 inches. I'm wondering, with dismay, if this is one. You must think it is good or you wouldn't have chosen it as an example of your work. If so, blimey! I daren't say any more or I will sound rude.....

Fascinating. And yet others elsewhere are complimentary about it. On what are you basing your dislike?
 
Joanna, you haven't done yourself any favours by showing us your black and white photo of the white cloud. When you write about how you make your black and white digital photos you sound like a real expert. But this photo looks like it was put together by a beginner, who didn't really know what they were doing.
You have told us several times about the wonderful black and white digital photos you make at a print size of 30 or 40 inches. I'm wondering, with dismay, if this is one. You must think it is good or you wouldn't have chosen it as an example of your work. If so, blimey! I daren't say any more or I will sound rude.....
I am wondering if the telltale pale halo around the trees on the horizon, were part of the artist's previsualised outcome or not. Either way, I am surprised to see it here as that mistake is typically a hallmark of entry-level post processing. FWIW it's hard to get that "exactly the same finished look" from film, so all is not lost.
 
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