Paterson Orbital Help Please.

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soupdragon

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I purchased a new/old stock Paterson orbital. tank to enable me to process 8x10 film.
I have only used one in the past for developing colour prints (RA4) whereby the little plastic tubs supplied with it hold enough chemistry for use as a one shot process.

Can anyone tell me how much chemistry the tank needs to develop 1 sheet of 8x10 slide film (E6 six bath) per solution?

My Stearman tank uses 300ml to 500ml on a chemical exhaustion basis but this seems rather a lot given the volume of the tank.
 
There are a couple of other things you might need to do. The printing paper it was designed for could usefully cling to the smooth base. Nothing on the back of a print to process. Film will cling in the same way, but film needs to encounter the chemicals to remove the anti-halation layer. The surface needs to be de-smoothed. Some people use those little self-adhesive bumper pads that stop cupboard doors clashing. Some put small dots of Araldite in a regular pattern and some score the surface with a craft knife. Opinion divided on removing the fins from the lid. Some people find it gives marks on the film; some don’t. Best to wait and see.
I use a different method now, but then, I used 300ml. It seems that people get different results with different quantities. Don’t know why.
Don’t use the domed base to develop according to the print instructions. It it is far too,vigorous for film and will give bromide drag around the sharp internal corners. Devise a convenient pattern of lifting successive edges or corners to move the chemicals around.
That seems to be all I can think of. Best of luck.
 
I have used a Paterson orbital for a good few years to develop 5 x4, 5 x 7 and 10 x 8, black and white only. I have found that agitation must be continuous. If intermittent, you get uneven development. Also, agitation should be gentle, or you get extra development round the edges. For this reason I use enough developer to just cover the film. It's easy to work out how much. Put used film in the tray, and pour in water til the film is just covered - right to the edges. Then measure how much water you have put in.
David mentions scoring the bottom of the tray with a knife. I did this initially, then switched to blobs of glue - also mentioned by David. When I switched to blobs of glue I found they raised the level of the sheet film, so I then had to use a bigger volume of developer. I used to use 300mls but had to switch to at least 500 mls.
David also mentions using a convenient pattern of lifting successive edges to agitate the developer. I try to avoid this, and agitate in a completely random manner.
 
As everyone else is saying, you need to add some blobs or glue or otherwise to the base inside. Both of mine also have the fins cut off.

Quantities: I have only used mine for b&w, but I would say 250ml. You will see people quoting lower figures than this, but if you stick a scrap sheet in there and try less than 250ml with the lid off you can see that you'll get underdevelopment in the middle. Probably fine for prints and processes than run to completion, but not for film. You don't need all the liquid to be covering all the film when used on the circular base, you just need it to come up to the centre of the film, then the rotation covers the rest.

I also wouldn't use more than 300ml, because if used as intended on the circular base it will tend to slosh out of the edges once you're at or above 300ml. So for me 250ml is perfect.

On the circular base you need to agitate (i.e. revolve the unit) constantly, and do it slowly, cos any sort of speed will fling the juice out to the edges and you'll get an underdeveloped middle of your image. Now I do this with slow rotations I get totally even development, no bromide drag or whatever, and I do it without needing excessive levels of fluid. It's not far too vigorous if you do it slowly. Yes, doing a 45minute cycle of 6-bath E6 in this is going to be tedious as f***! Get a good podcast on.
 
Alan Clark said:
I have used a Paterson orbital for a good few years to develop 5 x4, 5 x 7 and 10 x 8, black and white only. I have found that agitation must be continuous. If intermittent, you get uneven development. Also, agitation should be gentle, or you get extra development round the edges. For this reason I use enough developer to just cover the film. It's easy to work out how much. Put used film in the tray, and pour in water til the film is just covered - right to the edges. Then measure how much water you have put in.
David mentions scoring the bottom of the tray with a knife. I did this initially, then switched to blobs of glue - also mentioned by David. When I switched to blobs of glue I found they raised the level of the sheet film, so I then had to use a bigger volume of developer. I used to use 300mls but had to switch to at least 500 mls.
David also mentions using a convenient pattern of lifting successive edges to agitate the developer. I try to avoid this, and agitate in a completely random manner.
Click to expand...
500ml would have been my guess. And from the results from my spearman tank, continuous agitation is the way forward.
 
Dave_P said:
As everyone else is saying, you need to add some blobs or glue or otherwise to the base inside. Both of mine also have the fins cut off.

Quantities: I have only used mine for b&w, but I would say 250ml. You will see people quoting lower figures than this, but if you stick a scrap sheet in there and try less than 250ml with the lid off you can see that you'll get underdevelopment in the middle. Probably fine for prints and processes than run to completion, but not for film. You don't need all the liquid to be covering all the film when used on the circular base, you just need it to come up to the centre of the film, then the rotation covers the rest.

I also wouldn't use more than 300ml, because if used as intended on the circular base it will tend to slosh out of the edges once you're at or above 300ml. So for me 250ml is perfect.

On the circular base you need to agitate (i.e. revolve the unit) constantly, and do it slowly, cos any sort of speed will fling the juice out to the edges and you'll get an underdeveloped middle of your image. Now I do this with slow rotations I get totally even development, no bromide drag or whatever, and I do it without needing excessive levels of fluid. It's not far too vigorous if you do it slowly. Yes, doing a 45minute cycle of 6-bath E6 in this is going to be tedious as f***! Get a good podcast on.
Click to expand...
LOL. I won't be using the agitation base.
The tank will be floating in a tempering bath and continuously agitated.
From what you are saying 500ml may be too much?
 
500ml is way too much for the circular base IMHO (half of it will end up all over your worktop) but if floating in a water bath it might be fine as you'll won't really be tilting it far. If constantly agitating in a random manner then I dare say you could still get away with 250-300ml if floating. The problem with "random" however is that you might still get uneven development, if the chems randomly don't give even coverage for whatever reason. The beauty of the circular base thing is that the motion is systematic to know you're getting even coverage, and hand-rotating it give just enough natural unpredictability to it to ensure no weird standing waves or oddities like that.

I'd be wanting to test that out with the relatively "cheap" b&w film first though before wading into E6 with it, cos that's an expensive cockup if it doesn't work. That said, it's only really the two dev steps that (I'm guessing) aren't done to completion so if you get those right the rest should be fine.
 
Dave, I'd be grateful of you would clarify your method of agitation. When you say "circular base" does this mean you are sitting the orbital on its separate motorised base, and rotating it by hand. Or are you using the orbital without the separate base? If so, is the orbital flat at all times on its own circular foot, and just being rotated by hand?
 
I use it on the normal non-motorised manual base, the standard base that came with all the units. So in use it is always held at angle, and you turn it by hand so that each corner in turn is the downhill end and hence gets all the fluid coverage.

I’ve never used the motorised base, they have a reputation for uneven development due to standing waves etc as the motion is too regular.
 
Dave_P said:
I use it on the normal non-motorised manual base, the standard base that came with all the units. So in use it is always held at angle, and you turn it by hand so that each corner in turn is the downhill end and hence gets all the fluid coverage.

I’ve never used the motorised base, they have a reputation for uneven development due to standing waves etc as the motion is too regular.
Click to expand...
Thanks Dave. Mine came without a separate base, so I wasn't sure how they worked.
 
Dave_P said:
The last one I bought came with two bases so I have a spare if you're looking for one.
Click to expand...
Thank you Dave, but I get very even and consistently developed negatives with the agitation method I use, so I think it's best to stick to what works for me - even though it uses more developer.
 
For me, i sit the Orbital in a tray of 20deg C water and agitate by rocking it side to side for 30 sec then front to back for the same time, switching regularly.

Mike
 
soupdragon said:
I purchased a new/old stock Paterson orbital. tank to enable me to process 8x10 film.
I have only used one in the past for developing colour prints (RA4) whereby the little plastic tubs supplied with it hold enough chemistry for use as a one shot process.

Can anyone tell me how much chemistry the tank needs to develop 1 sheet of 8x10 slide film (E6 six bath) per solution?

My Stearman tank uses 300ml to 500ml on a chemical exhaustion basis but this seems rather a lot given the volume of the tank.
Click to expand...
I might be able to help:

Starting with B/W:
I used to use a small cylinder style tank for B/W processing single sheets of 10x8 in HC110. The way I calculated the minimum solution volume was to refer to the developer's capacity chart. For given concentrations (or dilutions) this lists the throughput in number of 35mm/36exp films (equivalent in area to one 10x8) that you can expect to process for say, one litre of developer. For example, say one litre at a given dilution will process 4 10x8 sheets. So, the minimum volume you need to process one 10x8 is a quarter of a litre 250 cm^3. (Sorry for stating the obvious!!).

With E6:
You might be able to use the same logic to calculate the minimum volume of chemistry per sheet. I would start by investigating the minimum amount of solution for one 35mm/36exp film and experiment from there.

I hope this helps,

Rob
 
Keith tapscott. said:

Developing Sheet Film in a Paterson Orbital Processor - Film and Darkroom User

Developing Sheet Film in a Paterson Orbital Processor Articles
www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk

Hope this is useful. I use 300mm of working solutions and the negatives come out fine.
I don't bother with either of the bases.
Click to expand...
You are talking my language.
I was hoping to float the tank in a tempering bath.
So, 300ml will allow agitation without too much spillage over the tank edges?
 
I think you’ll find that everyone’s idea of agitation is a little bit different, so one person may splash out liquids while another may have no trouble at all. The tank was designed to use rather small amounts of liquid on a different material. A bit of experiment to establish your own optimum method probably be needed.
One further thing hasn’t been mentioned. The tank will process smaller sheets than 10x8 and has little pegs to separate the sheets.They are too short and during agitation, the film may override them and clump together. It’s wise to improvise longer ones.
 
I glued some tiddlywinks to the top of the dividing pegs to stop the film floating up and over them.

Mike
 
David M said:
I think you’ll find that everyone’s idea of agitation is a little bit different, so one person may splash out liquids while another may have no trouble at all. The tank was designed to use rather small amounts of liquid on a different material. A bit of experiment to establish your own optimum method probably be needed.
One further thing hasn’t been mentioned. The tank will process smaller sheets than 10x8 and has little pegs to separate the sheets.They are too short and during agitation, the film may override them and clump together. It’s wise to improvise longer ones.
Click to expand...
I bought it just for 8X10 film although I had one many years ago for RA4 which I no longer do.
I hear talk of the film sticking to the base of the paterson but I'm not sure what the issue with this is.
 
The Orbital was designed for Cibachrome, that is, for prints. Prints have nothing on the back, but film has an anti-halation coating, which is opaque. It must be removed during processing so the chemicals need access to the back. It also needs washing. An alternative to modifying the base is to fix the film in a separate tray and then wash it in another one.
I don’t know if you’ve ever tried to remove a wet sheet of film from a smooth surface, but it can be very difficult and as the emulsion is soft from the processing, there’s a considerable risk of damage.
 
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