Do You Scan & Print or Darkroom Print

I am quite interested to hear whether you scan and inkjet pint your final work or are you strictly darkroom through and through

I'm afraid I don't know jack squat about alternative processes. Do you just develop in daylight/roomlight then?

Using the sun as a lightsource sounds interesting. But what happens if you want to print on one of the other 360 days each year? ;-)


After some re-reading throughout these few pages, may I offer some recommended reading for those who might be interested in a number of the archaic non-silver printing processes that you might be willing to explore... and with which they might be willing to try. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I now much prefer to 'invest' both in my 'un-dark' darkroom' time.. and limited funds, to work more in the non-silver processes.

A number of years ago, after gleaning some of the basic information on the "How-to's" on-line I decided to invest in a (somewhat) expensive tome by Christopher James after the local library decided that there being be an extremely small readership population, it might be better if I were to purchase my own copy.

(Christopher James' Alternative Photographic Processes. ISBN-13: 978-1-4180-7372-5)...) but there has been an updated 'issue' since this first graced my bookshelf. (2nd edition has some 600 pages of great reading).

Many practitioners have come to regard this book as "THE" book if you decide to enter into the foray... and have to admit that I have to agree with their recommendation. This book has allowed me to enjoy and explore and greatly expand my photographic 'print' options using that portion of the light spectrum without direct sunlight. While these processes are MUCH slower than current silver-gelatin print emulsions, I feel the time, effort and results are still well worth the investment.

Ken
 
I'm afraid I don't know jack squat about alternative processes. Do you just develop in daylight/roomlight then?

Using the sun as a lightsource sounds interesting. But what happens if you want to print on one of the other 360 days each year? ;-
DAve.i have used my 'el cheapo' (around $75.00 Canadian), to print the resulting scans from my Epson printer onto "PIctorico' from my 4x5negs up to 8x10 inches for contact printing for the 'archaic non-silver print processes (ie VDB). I am NOT disappointed with the results.... while we do experience lots of 'free' sunshine hours here on the S.Canadian PrairiesI I now find it to be relatively 'easy to print in the winter months using my home built UV light source form plans that were made available at no cost on the 'Net' a few years ago, since my Scottish blood prefers either low cost... or at no cost when it was available. You may have to perform some exposure-time test strips on start-up but it IS worthy of having the ability to print in the winter evening hours when it is as 'Dark as the Devil's waist-coat' outside and the snow is 2 to 3 feet deep on the driveway.and the temperature is suppose to hit the -25 degree C. by midnight.

Ken
 
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I worked for nearly 32 years in my darkroom till I got a wonderful Epson printer 7880 which serves me with so many finest prints especially on Hahnemühle photorag and baryta. I felt in love with colors but in the end I again felt to go back to the silver-gelatin prints.
It's nothing compared to a night in the darkroom.
agfa.jpg

I don't have a scanner and so 4x5 can only come to paper in a wet-darkroom.
 
I'm afraid I don't know jack squat about alternative processes. Do you just develop in daylight/roomlight then?

Using the sun as a lightsource sounds interesting. But what happens if you want to print on one of the other 360 days each year? ;-)


Many of the 'archaic' print processes are 'printing-out' onto 'regular 'acid free watercolour paper that you have already 'painted on the non-silver emulsion with a brush or a glass-rod 'Puddle pusher' rather than 'developing out' in a tray with a 'liquid' some of them may require slightly acid 'first' bath followed by a good wash and you may finish things off with room lights "on", before hanging up to 'dry'

They can be a'bit' more labour/time intensive... but they are just much,if not more, FUN to make.
YOU need not have to rely on the sun.. especially in the UK. YOU can purchase or build your own light source (as I had to do)using UV wavelength emitting fluorescent tubes.
MY exposures run (mostly)from 20 to 30 minutes


Ken
 
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Dave, have just scanned the front and back cover of Richard Farber's "Hiistoric Photographic Processes' if you cann provide me with an off-list email address I'm ready to forward those scans to you rather than taking up unnecessary space space in the server.

Ken
 
I tend to scan on an Epson V700 with a BetterScanning film holder; print "proofs" or up to A3+ on an Epson SC-P600, or send the files to Ilford for silver printing on their laser up to 50" wide.

The results from Ilford are stunning and every bit the equal (IMHO) to a darkroom print.

I have taught myself how to use Photoshop in a similar manner to creating a darkroom print. I dodge and burn by creating layers, adjusting curves for one particular area of the image that needs adjusting, then masking out the rest of the layer with a very soft edge. A process that can end up with several layers, each for with their own "contrast", all blended into one final image.

I once had the privilege of being a member of Lancashire Monochrome and met with Dave Lewis, who used to be a master printer (wet darkroom) and he told me that some prints could take up to 28 exposures! I've not had to use that many layers so far but, I have had to use around 10
 
This is interesting 6 years on. In the 1980s and 1990s I made my living as a photographer and worked freelance in other photographers studios printing b/w for them. I've had my own darkrooms - but am glad I can now work in daylight. I wouldn't go back to a darkroom - no space and I am now glad I sold all my darkroom equipment - although at the time I wondered if I was doing the right thing. I still enjoy shooting film, from time to time, and then working digitally from that point once the processing is over. Having various scanners over the years has given me access to old negatives which, to be honest, I thought would never see the light of day again. At the end of the day, I am able to enjoy what I am doing, in my own context - which is what its all about really, isn't it. Getting old and having fun.
 
I scan and get digitally printed for me ...
I used to love the relaxation of darkroom work, but I don't have the room or the spare time to darkroom print again ... but never say never
 
It took me four years to get a darkroom going again after relocating to Suffolk in 2016. So I mostly scanned and printed until 2020, using first Epson and lately Canon iP8700.
Now I spend my darkroom time trying to get as good results with chemicals as I can get on Hahnemuhle papers...:rolleyes:
 
Nothing beats a darkroom print ever, I know there are masters of scanning and printing on inkjet stuff, but is it the same as the faultiy crappy ones out of the sink?

I don't know, it's easier to scann edit, print and sitting on a comfortable chair in the office, but anyway the feeling is not the same.
Maybe it's like hiking to highest mountain, you could use a helicopter in fact it would be easier.....
 
Nothing beats a darkroom print ever, I know there are masters of scanning and printing on inkjet stuff, but is it the same as the faultiy crappy ones out of the sink?

I don't know, it's easier to scann edit, print and sitting on a comfortable chair in the office, but anyway the feeling is not the same.
Maybe it's like hiking to highest mountain, you could use a helicopter in fact it would be easier.....
Update to my hybrid process.

Scanning using an Epson V700 with Epson Scan software, processing in DxO PhotoLab and printing, either to my nice new Canon imagePROGRAF PRO-1000 or, for prints that are indistinguishable from darkroom prints, sending the files to either Ilford or a lab in Paris for printing on silver halide paper on a Lambda printer.

For inkjet printing of B&W images I use Canson Baryta Photographique 310gsm paper, which, to the untutored eye, is simply superb and by the time it is behind glass, I defy anyone to tell the difference from the intended viewing distance.

I'm sorry Martin but, unless you have seen the results from a Lambda printer, you will never realise how wrong your assertion that nothing beats a darkroom print is - and all without a single smelly chemical in sight ;)
 
I develop and print chemically. If I were still shooting commercially, there is no question I'd print digitally. But I don't and I don't so I print chemically.
 
Update to my hybrid process.

Scanning using an Epson V700 with Epson Scan software, processing in DxO PhotoLab and printing, either to my nice new Canon imagePROGRAF PRO-1000 or, for prints that are indistinguishable from darkroom prints, sending the files to either Ilford or a lab in Paris for printing on silver halide paper on a Lambda printer.

For inkjet printing of B&W images I use Canson Baryta Photographique 310gsm paper, which, to the untutored eye, is simply superb and by the time it is behind glass, I defy anyone to tell the difference from the intended viewing distance.

I'm sorry Martin but, unless you have seen the results from a Lambda printer, you will never realise how wrong your assertion that nothing beats a darkroom print is - and all without a single smelly chemical in sight ;)

I've not seen the output of a Lambda printer, but I've yet to see an inksprayer or laser that remotely matches the beauty of a silver print. But even if we stipulate that the output is comparable, it's a poor economic choice. I am unable to find the price of a new Lamba printer - perhaps Durst has discontinued it. However, used units are going for $10,000 USD and up. Add to that the not inconsiderable costs of ink and/or maintenance and it's not even a close comparison. For commercial applications this might/did make sense. For people printing for the joy of making beautiful art, I feel it does not.


To me, this is analogous to people spending 10,000 Euro for a Digital Leica and lens only to discover that a fairly pedestrian 5x4 view camera shooting well processed film eclipses it in terms of tonality, rendering power, and dynamic range. This whole business feels like making three lefthand turns to make a right. To be sure, digital imaging has a place, but one does not have to spend multiples of 5 digits to make great prints.

Digital isn't better. It's different, and it's more efficient for commercial purposes. Most of all, at best, it is an artform unto itself only peripherally related to traditional photography. The Moog synth did not displace the Steinway concert grand, and digital isn't a viable replacement for silver. It's just a new branch in a very big tree.
 
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I've not seen the output of a Lambda printer, but I've yet to see an inksprayer or laser that remotely matches the beauty of a silver print. But even if we stipulate that the output is comparable, it's a poor economic choice. I am unable to find the price of a new Lamba printer - perhaps Durst has discontinued it. However, used units are going for $10,000 USD and up. Add to that the not inconsiderable costs of ink and/or maintenance and it's not even a close comparison. For commercial applications this might/did make sense. For people printing for the joy of making beautiful art, I feel it does not.


To me, this is analogous to people spending 10,000 Euro for a Digital Leica and lens only to discover that a fairly pedestrian 5x4 view camera shooting well processed film eclipses it in terms of tonality, rendering power, and dynamic range. This whole business feels like making three lefthand turns to make a right. To be sure, digital imaging has a place, but one does not have to spend multiples of 5 digits to make great prints.

Digital isn't better. It's different, and it's more efficient for commercial purposes. Most of all, at best, it is an artform unto itself only peripherally related to traditional photography. The Moog synth did not displace the Steinway concert grand, and digital isn't a viable replacement for silver. It's just a new branch in a very big tree.

What I prefer is more digital control of a negative by being able to dodge, burn, locally change contrast and exposure and even tint and tone in a way that is non destructive and doesn't waste materials like a wet darkroom. I fall into the @Joanna Carter camp I'm afraid. I love the quality and permanence of a large negative over a digital file - but having printed professionally during my career I'm not overly sentimental about the wet process. I'm totally happy with the quality of the prints I get after I send away my files to be printed - to me, photography it's about manipulating my view of reality and presenting that to the viewer - how I get there is less important than the end destination.
 
There used to be similar discussions over the merits of resin-coated and traditional papers, then the same over multi grade versus single grade.
It seems to me that when an (informed) observer has to ask: “Is this a darkroom or a digital print?” the battle is more-or-less over.
This is not a claim that either system is either better or perfect. Personal preferences remain an important factor. There are differences and a good printer will exploit them in either medium.
I’m not sure if we have seen any named virtuoso digital printers, in the tradition of Saint Ansel.
As a footnote, may I ask if anyone has found a parallel discussion over colour printing?
 
There used to be similar discussions over the merits of resin-coated and traditional papers, then the same over multi grade versus single grade.
It seems to me that when an (informed) observer has to ask: “Is this a darkroom or a digital print?” the battle is more-or-less over.
This is not a claim that either system is either better or perfect. Personal preferences remain an important factor. There are differences and a good printer will exploit them in either medium.
I’m not sure if we have seen any named virtuoso digital printers, in the tradition of Saint Ansel.
As a footnote, may I ask if anyone has found a parallel discussion over colour printing?
I used to hand print 16x20 colour for theatre 'front of house' and would rather gnaw my own left leg off without the benefit of mustard than try that again!
 
I am unable to find the price of a new Lamba printer - perhaps Durst has discontinued it. However, used units are going for $10,000 USD and up. Add to that the not inconsiderable costs of ink and/or maintenance and it's not even a close comparison

A Lambda printer is a giant of a machine which most people would not be able to find room for in a domestic setting. It takes 50" wide roll paper and uses its lasers to expose silver halide paper, which is then passed through a conventional wet process development and fixing. You would need, at least, a double garage to house it.

All of which is why there are only a few labs that offer this service, usually by asking clients to upload their files and returning the prints in a tube.

To me, this is analogous to people spending 10,000 Euro for a Digital Leica and lens only to discover that a fairly pedestrian 5x4 view camera shooting well processed film eclipses it in terms of tonality, rendering power, and dynamic range. This whole business feels like making three lefthand turns to make a right. To be sure, digital imaging has a place, but one does not have to spend multiples of 5 digits to make great prints.

I think you have misunderstood what Lambda printing involves and costs. From Harman, a 20" x 24" print only costs around £30. See their site for more details https://www.harmanlab.com/page/86/NEW-B-W-PRINTING-SERVICES.htm

Digital isn't better. It's different, and it's more efficient for commercial purposes. Most of all, at best, it is an artform unto itself only peripherally related to traditional photography. The Moog synth did not displace the Steinway concert grand, and digital isn't a viable replacement for silver. It's just a new branch in a very big tree.

Don't forget that we are not necessarily talking about a digital capture, it's the process of getting a print from a negative or transparency.

There is every bit as much an art form in carefully crafting a digital scan into a file that will be Lambda printed on silver halide paper as there is in producing a darkroom print on silver halide paper through an enlarger or contact print.

In the darkroom you use multigrade paper and filters, test strips and create a printing plan and dodge and burn with paddles to achieve an optimal print. On a computer, I use a calibrated screen and software to dodge and burn areas of the image in exactly the same way to create a perfect file that will then be printed.

Ian and Martin have provided all sorts of tutorials on what they refer to as "contrast grading" but is, in fact, dodging and burning.

What I prefer is more digital control of a negative by being able to dodge, burn, locally change contrast and exposure and even tint and tone in a way that is non destructive and doesn't waste materials like a wet darkroom. I fall into the @Joanna Carter camp I'm afraid. I love the quality and permanence of a large negative over a digital file - but having printed professionally during my career I'm not overly sentimental about the wet process. I'm totally happy with the quality of the prints I get after I send away my files to be printed - to me, photography it's about manipulating my view of reality and presenting that to the viewer - how I get there is less important than the end destination.

Indeed. I have done darkroom printing - I needed to create a darkroom, either temporary or permanent, and spend hours and, more importantly, a lot of money producing test strips, printing plans and trial prints in order to get something that approached what I wanted. Now, I waste the same time but nowhere near as much money, as I am able to create a perfectly worked image for only the cost of the electricity to run the computer. Then it's a case of pressing "print" for a digital print, or sending the file to Harman for a silver print, knowing that, most of the time, that is the only time I will have to spend out on printing.

Of course, another advantage of the hybrid approach is that I don't have to go through the entire multiple exposure process that dodging and burning from a printing plan involves, all over again for every print.

Is digital printing of scans an art form? Well, if you consider that some B&W prints I have prepared have taken 3 or more days to work on, adjusting, assessing, leaving overnight for consideration and reflection, reworking, etc., it's certainly nowhere near an instant process and, as Ian, Martin and others here will testify, it's far from the everyday simple process that calling it "just digital" would infer.
 
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I printed colour for my personal work, again in the 1980s/1990s, but it was costly and really time consuming - at a time where I never seemed to have enough time. I would spend an eternity trying to remove colour casts, only to find my final print had a colour cast! All my professional work was printed through the lab - Joe's Basement - remember them? (London) I even tried Cibachrome printing of transparency stock. Now, I love printing through an inkjet printer in the daylight. My prints are for my own personal use and they compare favourably against my wet processed colour prints.
(Joe's Basement was a London based processing lab - Wardour St or Dean St - can't quite remember).
 
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