Rocky Shore - Plougrescant

[Joanna Carter]

That to me, now looks epic.

But what you've done is to post an identical version to Helen's original. I used Kaleidoscope image comparison tool and, for the two side by side, I got this…

And, for the pixel difference overlay comparison, I got this…


Thus showing that not one pixel was different on your version.

 

[Helen Summers]

Good to know we are on the same wave length though.

 

[soupdragon]

But what you've done is to post an identical version to Helen's original. I used Kaleidoscope image comparison tool and, for the two side by side, I got this…
View attachment 5433
And, for the pixel difference overlay comparison, I got this…
View attachment 5435

Thus showing that not one pixel was different on your version.

Well it's not the same as I understand things.
I edited the picture in Canon DPP.
I upped the sharpness and the contrast.

I guess it's possible my software un-did any mods you made and just put them back as they were.

Anyhoo, the images look profoundly different on my Mac monitor.


The bottom line is, your picture is great but lacks contrast on my system.

 

[soupdragon]

Perhaps I uploaded the wrong image.
I'll check that in a bit.

 

[soupdragon]

Ok.
The image I edited has a different bit count so yes, there have been changes.
I'll admit they were subtle to make things look good on my monitor.

 

[Joanna Carter]

Perhaps I uploaded the wrong image.
I'll check that in a bit.

Sort of. It would seem that DPP did a non-destructive edit to the JPEG file, but added the following editing parameters to the JPEG file…

[CanonVRD]      DR4 Camera Model                : Unknown (0)
[CanonVRD]      Rotation                        : 0
[CanonVRD]      Angle Adj                       : 0
[CanonVRD]      Check Mark                      : Clear
[CanonVRD]      Work Color Space                : sRGB
[CanonVRD]      Sharpness Adj                   : Sharpness
[CanonVRD]      Sharpness Adj On                : Yes
[CanonVRD]      Sharpness Strength              : 1
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Color Space          : RGB
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Shape                : Curve
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Input Range          : 5 250
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Output Range         : 0 255
[CanonVRD]      RGB Curve Points                : (5,0) (250,255)
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve X                    : 250
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Y                    : 255
[CanonVRD]      Red Curve Points                : (0,0) (255,255)
[CanonVRD]      Green Curve Points              : (0,0) (255,255)
[CanonVRD]      Blue Curve Points               : (0,0) (255,255)
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Original             : No
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Brightness           : 0
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Contrast             : 3
[CanonVRD]      Auto Lighting Optimizer         : Standard
[CanonVRD]      Auto Lighting Optimizer On      : Yes
[CanonVRD]      Luminance Noise Reduction       : 0
[CanonVRD]      Chrominance Noise Reduction     : 0
[CanonVRD]      Color Moire Reduction           : 2
[CanonVRD]      Color Moire Reduction On        : Yes
[CanonVRD]      Color Hue                       : 0
[CanonVRD]      Saturation Adj                  : 100
[CanonVRD]      Red HSL                         : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Orange HSL                      : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Yellow HSL                      : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Green HSL                       : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Aqua HSL                        : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Blue HSL                        : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Purple HSL                      : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Magenta HSL                     : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop Aspect Ratio               : Free
[CanonVRD]      Crop Aspect Ratio Custom        : 1.5 1
[CanonVRD]      Crop Active                     : No
[CanonVRD]      Crop Rotated Original Width     : 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop Rotated Original Height    : 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop X                          : 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop Y                          : 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop Width                      : 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop Height                     : 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop Rotation                   : 9999
[CanonVRD]      Crop Original Width             : 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop Original Height            : 0
[CanonVRD]      Stamp Tool Count                : 0
[CanonVRD]      Lens Focal Length               : 0

But, what it didn't do is rewrite the image information because, like some other software, DPP combines the edited image with the change parameters, so you can see the result, but only in DPP.

In order to see the edited file in any other viewer, you are going to have to export the edited, combined, file from DPP. The editing parameters I quoted are only usable in Canon's software.

 

[Ian Grant]

My new monitors arrived yesterday, even though I didn't pay the extra £23.99 tor 24hr delivery. But hey 16 miles from the seller helps. they are really nice.

Yes I do still have an issue until my HDMI to DVI cable arrives, Windows 11 priories VGA as Monitor 1, VGA is not a good match to a DVI/HDMI connection, but Windows 10 allowed the DVI monitor to be the primary. My new cables arrived silently, as I post I've just found them.

I've given a lot of thought, and many visual comparisons, we allow for the lower brightness and contrast of LCD screen compared to back lot LED LCD screens. I was looking at recent images posted to toady, and they looked great on all my screens.

In general, there are only a few occasions when a poster's images are consistently heavy, or excessively contrasty.

It's a case of comparison images from all others, we can all interpret images differently.

Ian

 

[soupdragon]

Sort of. It would seem that DPP did a non-destructive edit to the JPEG file, but added the following editing parameters to the JPEG file…

[CanonVRD]      DR4 Camera Model                : Unknown (0)
[CanonVRD]      Rotation                        : 0
[CanonVRD]      Angle Adj                       : 0
[CanonVRD]      Check Mark                      : Clear
[CanonVRD]      Work Color Space                : sRGB
[CanonVRD]      Sharpness Adj                   : Sharpness
[CanonVRD]      Sharpness Adj On                : Yes
[CanonVRD]      Sharpness Strength              : 1
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Color Space          : RGB
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Shape                : Curve
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Input Range          : 5 250
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Output Range         : 0 255
[CanonVRD]      RGB Curve Points                : (5,0) (250,255)
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve X                    : 250
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Y                    : 255
[CanonVRD]      Red Curve Points                : (0,0) (255,255)
[CanonVRD]      Green Curve Points              : (0,0) (255,255)
[CanonVRD]      Blue Curve Points               : (0,0) (255,255)
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Original             : No
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Brightness           : 0
[CanonVRD]      Tone Curve Contrast             : 3
[CanonVRD]      Auto Lighting Optimizer         : Standard
[CanonVRD]      Auto Lighting Optimizer On      : Yes
[CanonVRD]      Luminance Noise Reduction       : 0
[CanonVRD]      Chrominance Noise Reduction     : 0
[CanonVRD]      Color Moire Reduction           : 2
[CanonVRD]      Color Moire Reduction On        : Yes
[CanonVRD]      Color Hue                       : 0
[CanonVRD]      Saturation Adj                  : 100
[CanonVRD]      Red HSL                         : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Orange HSL                      : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Yellow HSL                      : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Green HSL                       : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Aqua HSL                        : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Blue HSL                        : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Purple HSL                      : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Magenta HSL                     : 0 -10 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop Aspect Ratio               : Free
[CanonVRD]      Crop Aspect Ratio Custom        : 1.5 1
[CanonVRD]      Crop Active                     : No
[CanonVRD]      Crop Rotated Original Width     : 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop Rotated Original Height    : 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop X                          : 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop Y                          : 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop Width                      : 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop Height                     : 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop Rotation                   : 9999
[CanonVRD]      Crop Original Width             : 0
[CanonVRD]      Crop Original Height            : 0
[CanonVRD]      Stamp Tool Count                : 0
[CanonVRD]      Lens Focal Length               : 0

But, what it didn't do is rewrite the image information because, like some other software, DPP combines the edited image with the change parameters, so you can see the result, but only in DPP.

In order to see the edited file in any other viewer, you are going to have to export the edited, combined, file from DPP. The editing parameters I quoted are only usable in Canon's software.

How do you know this stuff?
Are you a scientist.

I am impressed though.

What you are saying may account for why my uploaded images look nothing like they do on my screen.

Thank you.

Tony.

 

[Joanna Carter]

How do you know this stuff?
Are you a scientist.

Well, a computer scientist. But also someone who started photography at the mid sixties, moved to large format in 2005 and chose to scan the large negs rather than messing around in a smelly darkroom.

What you are saying may account for why my uploaded images look nothing like they do on my screen.

You could well be right. I'd suggest getting better software, like DxO PhotoLab and remembering to export the edited image.

 

[thronobulax]

My new monitors arrived yesterday, even though I didn't pay the extra £23.99 tor 24hr delivery. But hey 16 miles from the seller helps. they are really nice.

Yes I do still have an issue until my HDMI to DVI cable arrives, Windows 11 priories VGA as Monitor 1, VGA is not a good match to a DVI/HDMI connection, but Windows 10 allowed the DVI monitor to be the primary. My new cables arrived silently, as I post I've just found them.

I've given a lot of thought, and many visual comparisons, we allow for the lower brightness and contrast of LCD screen compared to back lot LED LCD screens. I was looking at recent images posted to toady, and they looked great on all my screens.

In general, there are only a few occasions when a poster's images are consistently heavy, or excessively contrasty.

It's a case of comparison images from all others, we can all interpret images differently.

Ian

I don't use Windows or Macs for anything, but on Linux at least, I got much better and accurate rendering when I switched to an Nvidia Display Port card to drive my multi-billion color Dell monitor.

 

[Joanna Carter]

I don't use Windows or Macs for anything, but on Linux at least, I got much better and accurate rendering when I switched to an Nvidia Display Port card to drive my multi-billion color Dell monitor.

If I can just clarify once again, the accuracy of rendering is not down to just the video card or the display, whatever the make of hardware. If you don't use a calibration device to create an ICC profile to adapt the display to the video card, you will only ever get just about, sort of, "it'll do" rendering.

Even with my Apple M4 MacBook Pro and Studio Display, if I don't create, and install, the, all important, ICC profile, along with a printer/paper/ink profile, I will never get a print that matches the screen. Because I took that time and trouble, I don't have to waste expensive paper on test prints.

 

[Ian-Barber]

I agree with the Display ICC profile but not so much with the printer profile if you are outputting a greyscale only print using the printers proprietory black and white driver

 

[Joanna Carter]

… but not so much with the printer profile if you are outputting a greyscale only print using the printers proprietory black and white driver

Indeed. Thank you for pointing that out. I found the Epson B&W mode to need the odd tweak and can understand your idea of printing curves but, with my Canon Pro 1000, it's a whole different game. I was totally blown away from the very first print.

If I may interject another very important point - make sure the monitor is set to a luminance of only 80cd/M². So many screens come factory set to some screamingly bright 120+cd/m² and, consequently, both on other screens and when printing, everything comes out way too dark.

 

[thronobulax]

If I can just clarify once again, the accuracy of rendering is not down to just the video card or the display, whatever the make of hardware. If you don't use a calibration device to create an ICC profile to adapt the display to the video card, you will only ever get just about, sort of, "it'll do" rendering.

Even with my Apple M4 MacBook Pro and Studio Display, if I don't create, and install, the, all important, ICC profile, along with a printer/paper/ink profile, I will never get a print that matches the screen. Because I took that time and trouble, I don't have to waste expensive paper on test prints.

I assumed that to be self evident, sorry I wasn't clearer. You absolutely have to a colorimeter and calibration software to get this right.

But even then there are rendering issues. If you use a service to print the work in color, you have to match their preferred color temperature and somehow get their printing ICCs into your editing workflow.

If you're using your own printer, it's best to have an ICC for each different paper/printer combination in use.

Then there's the matter of aligning the visual RGB color space with the CMYK used by printers, which is an imperfect thing.

But if you only care about screen presentation, things get simpler. The web is 8 bit/color RGB and no calibration scheme can perfectly match across the wide variety of monitors in use ... as we have seen here.

Where I see the biggest disconnect is trying to match print scans to the physical silver print. A print is reflective and a screen is transmissive and the two can never be fully harmonized in my experience.

I find this all tedious to do, so I stick mostly to silver printing and accept the inevitable "it doesn't look right on my monitor" complaints when I share scans of prints.

 

[Ian-Barber]

No matter how much you try to educate people of the importance of a calibrated workflow, I find that you can "only take a horse to water...."

 

[thronobulax]

No matter how much you try to educate people of the importance of a calibrated workflow, I find that you can "only take a horse to water...."

It's a fit for purpose thing, I think.

If you're editing for high resolution full color print publication in a book, you'd jolly well have better calibrated everything as tightly as possible.


If you're sharing holiday snapshots with your mother in law, I rather think it doesn't matter

 

[Joanna Carter]

Just a little recent anecdote. Helen wanted her B&W image of the moonrise with a storm cloud printed to A1. So, we prepared the file and printed it, at A2, to the Canon Pro 1000 on Canson Baryta Photographique II paper and got the expected result.

Then we prepared the larger version and sent the TIFF to Picto Labs in Paris for the A1 Lambda print on Ilford Baryta. The result was that we and others couldn't make out any difference in tonality and quality. We can only put this down to the fact that the screen is calibrated to 80cd/m², which allowed us to set the black and white points so well.

 

[soupdragon]

I think monitor calibration is the missing link in my workflow.
My scanner is calibrated for colour neg, colour positive and colour reflective.
I do not have the hardware to profile my monitor and, as I'm not a professional, cannot justify the cost.

 

[AERO]

All this looks more like computer science than photography

 

[soupdragon]

All this looks more like computer science than photography

That is very true but a highbrid workflow is un-avoidable if you want to share your hard work on tInternet.